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Husband's long wait for op, worried about spread

User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 01:19

Hello, I would like some opinions on wait time for Da Vinci robotic surgery. It is seven months since my husband first went for a PSA test, and he is still waiting to have his operation, and I want to know if you think this is reasonable. His father died of PC at the age of 79, five years after diagnosis. We don't know much about it, except it was described as 'indolent' at the time, although he later had RT.

Due to this, my husband asked to have a PSA test in his mid 50s, and had had two before the one in March, both of which were OK. The latest one was 5.5, so he was sent for an examination, which proved negative for anything suspicious, however, due to his dad's PC, the consultant sent him for a cautionary MRI, which didn't happen until four or five weeks later. Something was seen on this, so he went for a biopsy, after another long wait. Five weeks after that, he was finally diagnosed in mid July, and there followed a bone scan a couple of weeks later, which proved negative, thankfully. Another month's wait until he saw a consultant at another hospital in August, when he was told he would have his operation in October. We still haven't got a date. A second phone call to the surgeon's secretary two weeks ago resulted in him being told he is 6th in line, and the surgeon has now scheduled his ops until around mid November, so it won't be before then and could be delayed even further due to any emergencies (general urology, not just prostate) coming in. It does seem an inordinate amount of time to wait for treatment for an aggressive PC.

Due to this, my husband and I are growing increasingly concerned that the cancer may have spread by the time he has his op. His PSA may have been just marginally over, but his Gleason score was 8 (4 + 4). The surgery was put forward as his best bet for a cure and, at the time of the MRI back in early May, the tumour was said to be touching on the outside of the capsule, but still contained within it. The surgeon who will perform the op put him on hormone tablets after he saw him in mid August. 

In July, when he got his diagnosis, he was classed as T3a NOMO (don't forget, this was based on an MRI in early May), but we are obviously worried the tumour has broken out of the capsule now and the pathology report will be even worse after his op - whenever that might be. If we had known in July or August that he might not have his op until late November/early December, we would have considered going private, but we put our faith in the NHS system and are now wondering if we made a mistake.

I know they are under pressure, but the very long wait time makes a mockery of the urgent 2-week referral to the suspected prostate cancer clinic back in early April after his PSA result came back. Since then, everything seems to have slowed right down, if not completely stopped. 

Thank you for your time.

User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 13:42

Hello,

I am no expert just a survivor.Prostate cancer is slow growing apparently but I believe the waters are muddied by there being different types of cancer. My journey was three months from confirmed diagnosis to laparoscopic RP. I was originally offered open sugery but held out for keyhole and that did delay the treatment.And the op was postponed once.

Your partner being on hormones should help to shrink the cancer.

My gleason was 4+3 on one side and I was told that the MRI scan revealled the the cancer was just breaking through the capsule on that side. Post operative histology backed that up.

I know how anxious I felt waiting the relatively short time for my op so can only imagine how your partner must be feeling. It does seem a long time to have him hanging on. I must have been lucky on reflection. Maybe the De Vinci is the hold up?

THE CHILD HAS GROWN, THE DREAM HAS GONE
User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 15:08

Hey Nellydean,

I waited 25 days from diagnosis to operation.

However, I did let the administrators know that I was self employed and very flexible as to when I had my DaVinci RP.
I was given 3 dates which moved around a bit, but diagnosed on 01 April 2015, operated 25 April (home the next day)!
I think the normal wait time for DaVinci at my hospital was 5-6 weeks.

Edited by member 26 Oct 2015 at 15:09  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 16:35

Just to say welcome Nellydean.

Have you contacted the consultant's secretary and voiced your concerns, or asked to be put forward for any cancellations that appear?

You do seem to have been waiting a long time, but as Paul says, perhaps it's the Da Vinci bit that's held it up.

The hormones will be doing their job of shrinking the tumour so hopefully it will remain contained but not knowing that isn't helping is it.

Were you not given a designated cancer nurse so that you could ask for reassurance.

Anyway, I'm sure other members will be along to reassure you if they can or give their advice as to what to do next.

If it was me though, I would be ringing the secretary and saying we'd take a cancellation and explain that the waiting is causing too much stress and would it be possible for the consultant to advise us on the possibility of spread given the length of time since first diagnosis. Or even ask if there is a possibility of getting it done earlier at a different hospital

Good luck and best wishes

Sandra

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 16:49

My wife and I keep questioning my waiting time . It was all a bit strange . I had a PSA test that came back as 15 in Sept 14. It wasn't till June 15 ( 9mnths ) that I had the operation . However in this time I seemed to have fantastic service from the NHS with no end of scans , appts , biopsies etc . Unfortunately my cancer was very aggressive as well as evasive to detect , and I am now faced with HT / RT with a post-op PSA now at 2.4 .

If life gives you lemons , then make lemonade

User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 17:35

Hi,
NHS waiting times are about the space between diagnosis, making a choice of treatment and then the treatment actually starting. In your case, the hospital is well within the targets as your husband started treatment the day he had his first hormone. The cancer will not be spreading while you wait for the op as the hormones will be starving the cancer cells.
In addition, I have interpreted from your post that your husband went for a second opinion at another hospital and then opted to be treated there? If that is the case, your first hospital has been able to close the file so NHS target is irrelevant and I understand that the second option hospital are under no obligation to operate within a certain time which is why more urgent cases are slotted in ahead of you.

Personally, I think it is a great shame that people assume da Vinci is the gold star option and worth waiting for - if he had opted for open surgery he would probably be on the mend by now. it might be worth contacting your nurse specialist to ask how long before the hormones start to make the op more difficult to do.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 26 Oct 2015 at 22:38

Thanks to everyone for their replies, much appreciated.

 

My husband is 62. A second PSA test he had in the summer showed it had gone up to over 7. Still not a lot, but we were told some PCas don't secrete much of whatever it is they secrete. Each step of the way, the news has been a bit worse than expected. He only got the PSA test in March because he pushed for it, not because our GP surgery was keeping an eye on him (he'd told a previous doctors there about his father, but he dismissed his concerns and said if he wasn't having symptoms not to worry).

As regards the second hospital, this was not for a second opinion, my husband was referred there for the operation, and the consultant at this second hospital recommended the da Vinci, and he himself pioneered the technique in the region, so is much in demand. 

Specialist nurse: He had one at the first hospital but not at the second, so far. He has rung up the surgeon's secretary twice to ask about a date, to no avail, so I don't think there is any chance of a cancellation.

Good to hear, though, that the hormone treatment should be keeping it in check. 

 

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 09:26

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

 

Personally, I think it is a great shame that people assume da Vinci is the gold star option and worth waiting for 

[Lynn, DaVinci was the only surgery on offer to me! quote]

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 11:28

I am really surprised - perhaps having invested in the machine and the training, the urology dept needs to prove to the grey suits that it was a good investment? Early data from the European research (which is a large scale project) indicates that open, LRP and robotic all have about the same outcome in terms of 10 year survival and likelihood of recurrence, that LRP and robotic have much quicker recovery times but that open is the least likely to cause permanent side effects such as incontinence and ED. A quick scan of members on this forum seems to support that.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 11:34

Yes, it was the only option offered in my husband's case too. I can't say with 100% certainty, but I don't think they do the op there any other way now. We live in the West Midlands, and were told not even Birmingham offers da Vinci, so he is going to have it done at Wolverhampton New Cross Hospital, which is the lead hospital in the region for the procedure. As mentioned before, the surgeon pioneered it there about four years ago, and we are happy my husband is going to be in expert hands, it's just the very long wait that is a bit concerning, and also frustrating for my husband, as he was hoping to have been well on the mend by Christmas.

Still, as long as it goes OK and the outcome is good, that is all that matters.

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 11:34

"As regards the second hospital, this was not for a second opinion, my husband was referred there for the operation, and the consultant at this second hospital recommended the da Vinci, and he himself pioneered the technique in the region, so is much in demand."

I am sorry to say it Nelly and hope I am wrong but perhaps this is the nub of your problem - a medic who is promoting his own self-interest rather than thinking what is in the best interests of the patient? Based on your further information, I would perhaps start to pester and complain although technically the uro doesn't have to operate on your husband within a specific timeframe.

Edited by member 27 Oct 2015 at 11:36  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 11:41

The hospitals must offer the other types of prostatectomy for all the men who can't have or don't want robotic!

You could always ask your GP whether OH would be treated quicker by going back to Birmingham and having open or LRP

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 15:47

Could be down to Cannock/Stafford hospital problems still causing longer waiting time issues in Wolverhampton - Walsall - Sutton ( on another medical issue I waited nearly 2 months longer and that was after phoning) even with Saturday appointments coming on - line for some.

Ray

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 16:57

My area didn't have Da Vinci although my surgeon had apparently helped develop it in London ? I was only offered hand Laproscopic and not "open" which Lyn talks about a lot as being superior in many ways . I guess if they can avoid a large abdominal cut and maybe extra days in hospital recovering because of this ( and recovery time at home / risk of hernia etc ) , then they try to avoid it . Shame though if for many men it could give far better results on the ED and incontinence front ! I'm covered in scars anyway from hard work and motorcycles , so one more big one wouldn't have bothered me

Chris

Edited by member 27 Oct 2015 at 17:18  | Reason: Not specified

If life gives you lemons , then make lemonade

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 17:48

Not superior, just a different viable option for many. Hernia is a risk for all methods of RP

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 22:42
Hi

I've read with some interest about HT treatment before surgery, I was told by consultant today that if I started HT today then I would not be able to get surgery at all. Also da vinca is seemingly not available in Scotland, no good to me anyway. In this day and age you would think that money would be targeted at this type of machine.

User
Posted 27 Oct 2015 at 23:08

This is common in some areas as the hormone treatment can also make the prostate harder to remove in one piece.

I guess that until there is some evidence that Da Vinci is better than the other ops rather than just more convenient, it is considered a luxury to have the machines. There is also all the additional expense of training people to use it

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 28 Oct 2015 at 10:33
Hi Nellydean

Just to clarify, was your husband told by the QE Birmingham that they dont perform Da Vinci as the following link would suggest otherwise, it refers to the surgeon that carried out my operation at the Priory which was not carried out by robot, I know he has perfomed many of these operations, and is one of the top surgeons in the country.

http://www.uhb.nhs.uk/news/first-robot-assisted-op-and-keyhole-patients-meet.htm

As regards the hormones prior to RP, I had 6 months of hormones prior to my operation due to a PSA of 94.4, and sugeons don't always like to operate with hormones in the equation, as it is harder to stage the gland once it is removed due to the hormones affecting the structure of the cells resulting in a possible false Gleason score being reported.

All the best

Roy

Edited by member 28 Oct 2015 at 10:34  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 28 Oct 2015 at 11:48
Hi Roy

Just been offered HT followed by RT, was told that surgery wouldn't be possible if given HT first due to my T3b and PSA32.

Again just shows the different opinions of consultants etc, I knew that it could make it more difficult for surgery but told not possible at all.

Been referred to 2 professors in this field for second opinions.

Sandy

User
Posted 28 Oct 2015 at 12:14

Hi Sanders
Some people on here have been offered HT, and RT in the middle of it , and then HDR Bracchy on top as well. Would this be an option for you ?? Just wondered

If life gives you lemons , then make lemonade

 
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