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PSA surprisingly high at 1.89 post radical prostatectomy

User
Posted 27 Jul 2019 at 14:56

In all the years I have been on here, I have never known another member whose moobs disappeared after HT finished, regardless of whether they had tamoxifen. We have had a number of members who needed counselling, antidepressants, binding and/or surgery.

I think a lot of doctors minimise the problem or underestimate the impact it can have. 

Edited by member 27 Jul 2019 at 14:57  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Jul 2019 at 15:37

I hit mine with tamoxifen as soon as I detected them. I didn't wait until end of HT - they would be too old by then for tamoxifen to work. I'm still on HT for some time yet.

"I think a lot of doctors minimise the problem or underestimate the impact it can have."

Oh sure, for just about every HT side effect.

When I was put on HT, I asked what the side effects were.
"Your penis will shrink" was the response I got. That was it. And nothing even about that being avoidable.

This was why I leapt at the opportunity to run a session on HT side effects at a local support group when I was asked, so others are better informed.

User
Posted 27 Jul 2019 at 15:50
You missed my point. Many doctors say it doesn’t happen and if it does, it is reversible. You were lucky to get the treatment, most are refused so my comment was nothing to do with people waiting until the end of HT before they do anything.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Jul 2019 at 16:06

Ah, sorry Lyn.

I think that situation may have got somewhat better over time - many men do seem to get tamixifen now, and fortunately it's a dirt cheap drug, but I do still come across a lot in local support groups (nowhere near as informed as on here) who are unaware there's any way to avoid the moobs. I would be surprised if any doctors denied it happens now, although one consultant I only ever saw once expressed surprise it could happen in as little as 13 weeks. I was refused it at the outset, but not when symptoms actually appeared.

Yes, I'm very lucky with my onco and my GP. They've both done things I've asked for which are not on the approved path, but then I've only asked them for things which I thought were reasonable and I  could back up with research papers.

User
Posted 29 Jul 2019 at 19:14

Andy, your tamoxifen data is interesting. I am starting on 1 x10mg/week from the start - starting as soon as I started the bicalutamide.  The surgeon wondered if that was enough but the oncologist determined that as a start point. 

I started on 150mg/day bicalutamide yesterday and have felt crap all day. Very windy, watery bowls, headache and slight nausea. But on reflection I’m not surprised as yesterday I took bicalutamide, tamoxifen and also a Cialis pill and also enjoyed some beer and wine!  Oops!

interesting to see what tomorrow feels like with just the bicalutamide and no alcohol!

Interested in any experience of alcohol with bicalutamide that’s out there....

Edited by member 29 Jul 2019 at 19:43  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 06 Aug 2019 at 15:18
Hello, my husband has been on bicalutamide for nearly 4 weeks. He was recently diagnosed and this is his first treatment. The urologist told him not to drink alcohol whilst on the tablets. He has had no issues to date apart from feeling a bit tired but, of course this may not be drug related.

Ally

User
Posted 06 Aug 2019 at 16:03

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Andy, your tamoxifen data is interesting. I am starting on 1 x10mg/week from the start - starting as soon as I started the bicalutamide.  The surgeon wondered if that was enough but the oncologist determined that as a start point.

That sounds very low. NICE recommends 2x20mg/week. Some people start on 1 x 20mg/week.

It's rare to find anyone being prescribed anything other than the 20mg tablets, because the other sizes are about 40 times the price.

As I said, it takes about 3 months to build up to the steady level in your body, but that doesn't matter if you start taking it with the bicalutamide, because it takes around the same time for gynecomastia to start on bicalutamide. The initial dose escalation is relevant when you start taking it in response to gynecomastia having already started.

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
I started on 150mg/day bicalutamide yesterday and have felt crap all day. Very windy, watery bowls, headache and slight nausea. But on reflection I’m not surprised as yesterday I took bicalutamide, tamoxifen and also a Cialis pill and also enjoyed some beer and wine!  Oops!

interesting to see what tomorrow feels like with just the bicalutamide and no alcohol!

Interested in any experience of alcohol with bicalutamide that’s out there...

I wasn't told not to drink, but as it happens, I don't drink anyway. I suspect the headache and nausea are most likely down to the cialis (tadalafil). I have taken all 3 of those together (albeit low dose bicalutamide and low dose tadalafil) without any side effects other than the expected hormone therapy side effects.

Edited by member 06 Aug 2019 at 16:04  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 12 Oct 2019 at 08:41

Hello all, well it’s been a while since I posted.

I’m 11 weeks into 150mg/day of bicalutamide, and have been doing well on it. I’ve been working very hard to be active, trying to swim (2km), run (5km) or weights in gym (45-60mins) maybe 6 times a week. Feeling like the strongest medicine maybe good and vigorous exercise!

Side effects - some tiredness (maybe the exercise), libido disappeared completely (no embers even burning...!), changed bowel movements (perhaps more frequent, and always a messy affair these days, mostly requiring bog-brushing after flushing to clean the bowl), reduced mental resilience (lower capacity to deal with nonsense at work), I’m wondering about slightly reduced flow but not 100% sure about that yet and changed smell of nose mucus (is that what you call ‘bogeys’?)

All of this has been very manageable and certainly much better than I had feared. With these side effects, I would have absolutely no hesitation in doing HT.

And then just as I say that, starting yesterday, sore breasts/nipples for the first time I guess signalling the start of breast growth. So I guess that means I should up my dose from the current low 10mg/week of tamoxifen? Does tenderness definitely signal breast growth, and is it fully avoidable via tamoxifen? Or is it inevitable that there will be some soreness? I’ll be testing with onco, but interested in views from the community.

I have my PSA, liver function test, consenting meeting with onco, and planning scan all next week - so a big week. I’ll be really interested to see how my PSA has responded to bicalutamide after being ridiculously high at 1.89 post prostatectomy..... will of course report in due course.

Edited by member 12 Oct 2019 at 17:00  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 12 Oct 2019 at 12:18
My psa was 1.5 post op. I’m now 4 1/2 yrs on. I was on Bical for 11 months and psa dropped to 0.33

If life gives you lemons , then make lemonade

User
Posted 03 Nov 2019 at 07:36

PSA and liver function tests showed no problem with liver and a greatly reduced PSA down to 0.12 from 1.89 immediately after prostatectomy- so I was very pleased to see the bicalutamide working.

Planning scan done, 3 “tattoos” around the pelvis completed and I’m ready to start the 33 sessions of radiotherapy - first one tomorrow. Strong direction from oncologist not to swim during RT which is disappointing (infection risk from the pool once skin gets to suffer from the sunburn stage side effects of RT). So looks like I’m left with jogging and the gym - my 2 least preferred means of exercise.

Increased tamoxifen to 20mg/week as breasts were and still are sore and also growing I think - so will ask oncologist whether I should increase again to 2x20mg/week.

Only other notable thing has been a 2 week period of very sore left hip after walking more than 10mins. Unsure if related in any way, but MRIs of hip and lumbar spine completed this week to have a look at. Results awaited. In the meantime, the pain has eased significantly which is great as I need to be mobile to get up to London every day fir the 33 RT sessions.

Edited by member 03 Nov 2019 at 09:00  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 03 Nov 2019 at 08:19
Best of luck with your RT, Guy. I had RT in Feb/Mar this year and got through it with relatively few side effects. The worst was the need to pee every 45m all through the night for the last few weeks of treatment, due to bladder irritation by the radiation. If this happens to you, buy a plastic urine bottle (I bought one from Amazon). Not having to get out of bed repeatedly dramatically reduces the tiredness. Side-effects generally peak about 10-14 days after RT finishes and in my case had almost entirely disappeared a month after RT.

I've been on 150mg/day bicalutimide since August 2018 and experienced significant breast growth in the last few months. My tamoxifen dose has been increased to 10mg/day to try to stop it, but not much impact so far.

Best of luck with the treatment,

Chris

User
Posted 03 Nov 2019 at 08:39

Thanks Chris, I’ve got the plastic pee bottle on standby as we enjoy campervaning and have one for that purpose. Thanks for the suggestion and good to know you coped well with the RT. 

User
Posted 22 Dec 2019 at 07:38

Hello all, time for an update. 

last Weds, 18th December marked my 33rd and final RT session. I’ve coped quite well, only taken off the bed on 2 occasions - both for bowel condition, meaning gas that needed to be moved on, so to speak. I’ve learned that my bladder is a champion bladder - turning up every day in a well hydrated condition with the only question being how much I should release before RT. I would sometimes have more than 800ml in my bladder on turning up with the target size for RT for me being 325ml +\- 25%, which was a comfortable volume to hold. So, no bladder trouble, no wetting the RT bed, and no apparent irritation from RT either. All good for the bladder. 

The bowel was a different story and I ended up (still have...) with radiation induced proctitis which has been unpleasant and sore. I have also produced increasingly large quantities of gas. Proctitis feels like a sunburnt bowel internally, painful to pass a stool, and never quite sure if I’m constipated or with diahorrea or whether I want to pass a stool or some gas. Hydrocortisone suppositories at night with paracetamol (which I learned also has anti-inflammatory effects), dulcoease stool softener after porridge in the morning (porridge great for a gas-free experience but risk of constipation at least for me - so stool softener reduces pain of passing a stool), and Movicol (anti constipation) before bed with the tip of washing it down with warm drink - I used peppermint tea - to improve its effectiveness. This seems to be the formula that makes it manageable for me. 

Not at all surprising to see the bowel impact as you’ll remember I’m a T3 cause the PC had left the prostate before removal and was seen in a biopsy on the urethra - very unusually. So the RT is targeted on an area that includes as low as possible so that it sweeps up the urethra. In so doing, bowel impact is inevitable.  So far, no evidence of structures from RT on/in the urethra.

Wednesday 18th also marked me stopping the bicalutamide and I’m now waiting for my testosterone to return after 4 1/2 months on it. Any shared experiences on the forum would be great to hear. How long does it rake for it to return following stopping taking it?  Is it a gradual process or could there be some kind of testosterone rush?  My breasts are sore and I’m looking forward to this pain going away.

I’ve been a bit tired towards the end but have managed some exercise most days, perhaps dropping to 4 or 5 times a week in the last couple of weeks. The exercise has proved difficult to get out and do but made a huge difference. I can almost feel the tiredness leaving my body as I exercise and end up noticeably less tired as the exercise progresses. 

I've had some intermittent hip pain before any of this started, and this has returned in the last week or so together with a bit of lower back ache. MRI of hip and lumbar spine organised by Oncologist checking for any cancer related cause hadn’t shown any cancer related worry, and I’m now looking to be referred onto a orthopaedic specialist to look at that. Too young for a new hip it feels to ok me. 

Next steps check up with oncologist at end Jan 2020 but main event mid March 2020 with a sensitive PSA test included to see what the RT and HT combo has achieved. That’ll be a big day, but need to put it to one side and get on with living life now!

In the meantime, time to enjoy Christmas with the family!

Happy Christmas to you all - here’s hoping 2020 brings you all much health and positive progress. 

User
Posted 22 Dec 2019 at 08:14

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Hello all, time for an update.

last Weds, 18th December marked my 33rd and final RT session. I’ve coped quite well, only taken off the bed on 2 occasions - both for bowel condition, meaning gas that needed to be moved on, so to speak. I’ve learned that my bladder is a champion bladder - turning up every day in a well hydrated condition with the only question being how much I should release before RT. I would sometimes have more than 800ml in my bladder on turning up with the target size for RT for me being 325ml +\- 25%, which was a comfortable volume to hold. So, no bladder trouble, no wetting the RT bed, and no apparent irritation from RT either. All good for the bladder.

Congratulations Guy.
By the way, 800ml is a large bladder.

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
 Wednesday 18th also marked me stopping the bicalutamide and I’m now waiting for my testosterone to return after 4 1/2 months on it. Any shared experiences on the forum would be great to hear. How long does it rake for it to return following stopping taking it? Is it a gradual process or could there be some kind of testosterone rush? My breasts are sore and I’m looking forward to this pain going away.

Bicalutamide takes about a month to leave your system. I don't know if there's any additional time required for the androgen receptors to become unblocked after that, and able to respond to testosterone again. Bicalutamide doesn't make you lose your testosterone, just stops the body being able to use it, so I doubt there's any kind of rush. If you have any breast bud growth you can feel, you might want to ask for Tamoxifen for a few months as it can reverse it providing it's used very soon after it happened. Not suitable for people with cardio issues or any raised risk of DVT though.

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
I can almost feel the tiredness leaving my body as I exercise and end up noticeably less tired as the exercise progresses.

I've had some intermittent hip pain before any of this started, and this has returned in the last week or so together with a bit of lower back ache. MRI of hip and lumbar spine organised by Oncologist checking for any cancer related cause hadn’t shown any cancer related worry, and I’m now looking to be referred onto a orthopaedic specialist to look at that. Too young for a new hip it feels to ok me.

I hammer on about this when counseling men, but I love your phraseology, which I might steal...

However, you will probably be a bit low on hemoglobin as your pelvis (where much hemoglobin is made) gets irradiated too, so take it easy with extreme exercise for a month.

Hormone therapy loosens ligaments in the hips and other joints, and can cause pain. Some of it is likely to be this.

The end of therapy can feel like a big anti-climax after you've had people treating and fussing over you every day for weeks. Christmas may help alleviate that in your case, but with treatment complete, get on with the rest of your life, and may it be long and healthy. You will probably have bowel issues to remind you for some few months though.

User
Posted 22 Dec 2019 at 08:26

Thanks Andy, still taking the Tamoxifen 20mg once per week. Oncologist quite clear that he didn’t want to increase it above that level even when breasts were sore. Will keep that going for about ) weeks, certainly until I see him again at end Jan 2020. 

User
Posted 30 Jun 2020 at 11:46

Feel like I owe an update, all of which is good. As a reminder, my story is wonderfully captured in a concise way by the Onco as follows:


Diagnosis: Adenocarcinoma of the prostate: Feb 2019
- Presenting PSA 4.3. MRI: T2 N0
- TP Biopsy: Gleason 3+3-3+4 (15% Gl 4); 14/22 cores (max length 4mm); PNI
- May 2019: RARP: Gleason 3+4; +ve margins (apex: Gleason 3+3 L / 3+4 R).  pT3a Nx (+ve urethral biopsies)
- July 2019: Post-op PSA 1.89 / 1.90.  PSMA-PET-CT: No obvious PSMA avid disease but uptake in bed.
   Commenced Bicalutamide (with tamoxifen cover)
- Oct 2019: PSA 0.12
- Dec 2019: Completed salvage radiotherapy: Prostate Bed.  IG-IMRT: 66Gy in 33 fractions; stopped Bicalutamide
- March 2020: PSA < 0.03
- Jun 2020: PSA <0.03

So undetectable PSA 6 months out is a great result after having a PSA of 1.90 post RARP.

Thanks for all the support from this community over the last about 18 months.

Edited by member 30 Jun 2020 at 11:51  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 30 Jun 2020 at 12:24
Excellent results Guy, delighted for you👍
User
Posted 30 Jun 2020 at 12:35
RT seems to have done a good job - excellent
Barry
User
Posted 30 Jun 2020 at 13:29

Result!!!

Flexi

User
Posted 30 Jun 2020 at 14:57

Escellent result. Thanks for update.

Ido4

 
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